mordicai magog, to caeli therion. ([info]mordicai) wrote,
@ 2008-12-28 13:23:00
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Current mood:blah blah blah.
Current music:crown me king- how's annie?
Entry tags:comics, movies

Comicbook Vacation.
Do this week has been pretty gosh darn lazy. I have work off until the second of January, but everyone is either out of town or otherwise occupied, so I have been spending it by myself during the day & with Jenny at night. The daytime solo has mostly been made up of me playing video games: the Transformers & Spider-man Three games-- the former is fun but has horrible camera angles, the latter is fun but has way too many controls. I've also been going to the gym & having pretty successful workouts, other than the fact that I'm skimping on cardio since there hasn't been anything to watch on television while I elliptical or whatever. During the night, Jenny & I watched the Lord of the Rings trilogy in the extended editions. Other than that, I've been all on my lonesome with no one to pay any attention to me-- misery!

Last night (& this morning) Jenny has been fighting off a cold, so I've been double whammied. To make up for it I watched The Incredible Hulk. Which was pretty awful, actually. The Hulk roaring at the thunderstorm was the only good part of it. Well, & roaring after beating up the Abomination. I guess the Hulk roaring was okay. Still-- vacant, utterly absent. Plus-- correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the movie took place in a Mountain Dew factory? What the...hell? It was doubly ruined, because before I turned it on I watched an episode of The Brave & the Bold which had super-smart gorillas riding pterodactyls. So sorry, Hulkikins. Today of course there is no game, what with everyone still out of town. James was going to run some kind of pick-up, but no luck. I made some eggs in a basket (with Jenny's bread cut into heart shapes) & now I've left her to watch television in the other room.

Oh & I wanted to talk about Frank Miller. A lot of people are glad that The Spirit tanked. No big surprises there. The thing that really has been getting under my skin-- for no particular reason-- is that Neil Gaiman likes Frank Miller. I am not one of those who put Gaiman up on a pedestal, but I like him & generally his opinions are reasonable. I just-- ugh. In particular, the image below. Mister Gaiman posted it to his blog, & it bothered me enough to post about it in the feed comments. Mostly-- here is the thing. There are two things-- two things that bother me. One is that Frank Miller isn't any good. Dark Knight Returns, Daredevil-- they both seemed good. They seemed like a melding of comics with pulp noir; & for its moment, they seemed genuinely brilliant. Heck, I think Sin City is a natural follow through-- I liked it, & the movie. It has become clear though that actually, Frank Miller wasn't merging noir with superheroes. Nope! He was only just trying to figure out new ways of demeaning women. Man, he hates women. Which is what makes the picture annoying-- it is a disguise. It seems like it is making a statement about censorship. Really though, it is just another excuse for Frank Miller to present women as sexy victims. Eff that.



The other thing that really bothers me is when people scream "censorship!" when you say you don't like a piece of offensive art. Listen-- no. I'm not saying it should be illegal for Frank Miller to call women prostitutes & draw them with bukkake faces & dress them in lingerie & then have them get beaten up. Fine. What I am saying is that I sure as hell won't buy it. & I'll tell people not to buy it. & so forth. Not putting out crap is also legal. Saying "this is demeaning garbage" is the right way to handle it. I'm not saying it should be illegal for Frank Miller to...well, be Frank Miller. What I am saying is that people should stop buying his comics, seeing his movies. Stop publishing his comics, letting him direct movies. He isn't any good-- he isn't even telling good stories with this stuff in them anymore. Really. He just writes comics where Batman calls kids retarded. Frank Miller is the Old Yeller of comics.



(36 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]jjjiii
2008-12-28 07:51 pm UTC (link)
I've liked Frank Miller's 80's and 90's work up to a point. I really liked Hard Boiled, which reminded me a lot of Philip K. Dick's brand of science fiction.

I started to not like him so much when I started reading how he responded to his critics. His basic reaction to any kind of cricism seems to be "What? I'm Frank Miller. Fuck you!" He seems to enjoy being worshipped by his adoring fans and has little patience for anything that might force him to think or make himself better, because, after all, how can that be possible?

He's the kind of artist who just wants his art to speak for itself, and doesn't feel like he should have to talk about it beyond the act of communication that he engaged in when he created the initial work. Which, it sounds like that's an integrity stance that an artist ought to take. Only, that's like being a dead artist while you're still alive, because artists can and should feel free to talk about their work if someone asks them about it. Like any other civilized person talks about their work.

When you get the "I'm letting the work speak for itself" thing from an rtist, it's like talking to someone who thinks they're so all-important and correct that they should never have to repeat themself, or explain what they meant when they said something. Like it's your fault you weren't paying attention or are too dumb to understand. Fuck that. Man needs some surgical ego reduction.

He can, though, draw pretty good.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-28 08:16 pm UTC (link)
See-- the really killer for me isn't that he doesn't talk about his work-- or that people will interpret things of his that suck as "parody"-- but rather that he isn't actually DOING anything. Making Vicki Vale a vapid idiot who prances around in her underwear & is basically a starfucker? Isn't telling a story. & basically-- it has become clear that is the only note he can hit. Women are either sexy victims or they are sexy whore or they are crazy...sexy crazy. These are the options. It isn't even cheesecake; it is pretty much just gross.

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[info]jjjiii
2008-12-28 08:49 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. I shudder to think how he'd draw Aunt Mae.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-28 09:05 pm UTC (link)
Oh man...Frank Miller is such a misogynist that he can't even do a MADONNA. Woah.

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[info]onatopofthings
2008-12-28 08:09 pm UTC (link)
Bravo!

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-28 08:18 pm UTC (link)
i also am inclined to second the "This image was in a post about a cute Coraline puppet?" point, too. I mean-- if it had been in a post about the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund I would have just rolled my eyes instead of singling it out.

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[info]onatopofthings
2008-12-28 08:26 pm UTC (link)
i think i passed right over it initially. i remember reading the post and seeing the coraline pictures, but not the miller graphic until you reposted it.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-28 08:30 pm UTC (link)
I mean-- & this is a big part of it-- it isn't that the picture is so awful? Until you position it within his body of work. In context the image is way worse than out of context-- which means that the context? I.E. Frank Miller? Is awful.

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[info]onatopofthings
2008-12-28 08:41 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, which is why I tend to pass over his stuff without so much as a second glance.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-28 08:45 pm UTC (link)
which is very smart.

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Followed!
[info]ravenface
2008-12-28 09:11 pm UTC (link)
Followed your link and excellent discussion. The stick figure example was a delight!

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Re: Followed!
[info]mordicai
2008-12-28 09:14 pm UTC (link)
I hadn't seen the stick figure-- bravo [info]m_w_e.

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Re: Followed!
[info]mordicai
2008-12-28 09:15 pm UTC (link)
i linked to YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

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[info]toughlad
2008-12-28 10:34 pm UTC (link)
I used to remember liking "the golden age" of Frank Miller but going through a lot of his backlog is kind of... underwhelming.

For example I don't think Dark Knight Returns has aged very well and is somehow reduced by its sequel, and I'm on the team usually that ancillary material cannot be allowed to demean core material (Star Wars I am looking at YOU).

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-28 10:41 pm UTC (link)
Off topic-- like Frank Miller & Superman. What the hell, Frank Miller. Have you ever read a Superman comic? Superman exactly ISN'T a punk-- but of course, you gotta make him so. Miller gets credit for "darking" up Batman, but really he should get credit for "dumbing" him--- just a lot of punching, really.

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[info]kromelizard
2008-12-29 01:14 am UTC (link)
I actually think Year One is where Miller's Batman shines. Dark Knight is interesting stylistically, but less successful as a story.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-29 03:05 am UTC (link)
I like Year One but I've never been as gonzo about it as others.

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[info]kingtycoon
2008-12-29 03:08 pm UTC (link)
See - to me that was the thing that stands out strongest in the Dark Knight. Here's a guy - he's done it all, figured things out - done what he can to remove the criminal element from the city through brains and detectiveness - and it hasn't worked out. He's quit in failure and he just can't let it go - so he beats the hell out of people out of frustration. Like- Batman finally realizes that Violence is the Solution.

It isn't exactly a batman book you know.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-29 04:20 pm UTC (link)
right-- it isn't a Batman book-- it is pretty much identical to every single thing Frank Miller puts out. Except there isn't a girl. Well-- there is girl Robin, Carrie Kelly. Carrie Kelly actually is a positive female figure.

Like I said-- I liked, still like, Dark Knight. But think Frank Miller is the worst. See also: Star Wars & George Lucas. Ha.

You are the crazy lunatic who liked Dark Knight Strikes Again though.

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[info]kingtycoon
2008-12-29 04:48 pm UTC (link)
Hey you're the lunatic who interprets like as will marry and possibly try to have sex with...

I have a pretty tepid like for the Dark Knight strikes back and generally my liking is based on what I percieve it to be-

In the same way that DK and say Elektra contended against the enormous pussyness of late 80's marvel/dc (people have elaborate motivations, people who do these things are deeply psychologically unsound, you're a fool to think that the dude who dresses up as a monster and fights criminals in the street is any kind of good person...) The Dark Knight strikes back is pretty apparently a counter-commentary on the Overblown deification of the superheroes that's been ongoing lately - See Kingdom Come the Various earth x.x of Marvel and so on - Grand Epic Story! Tolkienization of the various franchises and I like the Dark KNight strikes back for taking the piss out of them and making them comic book characters again.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-29 05:02 pm UTC (link)
I get that you think DKSA is some kind of parody-- also that you somehow like Brat Pack-- & it is possible that me not having a childhood relationship with the comics it is backlashing against is what keeps me out of the loop. Of course, that only underscores that the works can't stand on its own merit...

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[info]kingtycoon
2008-12-29 05:22 pm UTC (link)
Uh, when is the last time any comics have survived on their own merits? You wouldn't even know what a comic book is if it weren't for Tim Burton...

Now, they're more expensive than the bootleg dvds of the movies that they're based on. I wonder how long there'll be comics in print.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-29 06:00 pm UTC (link)
...Tim Burton? Are you saying Burton = Gaiman? I heard about Sandman in a Tolkien seminar when I was in Quest, fun point of info.

I think print comics will be okay-- but not floppies.

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Burton != Gaiman
[info]martak
2008-12-30 07:51 am UTC (link)
Gaiman would not have touched Planet of the Apes or any of those shitty Attack-of-the-Killer-Tomatoes-Wannabe-Martians.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-30 02:43 pm UTC (link)
Mars Attacks! is fine.

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[info]kromelizard
2008-12-29 01:17 am UTC (link)
I find it sort of strange that your reaction to the comments on this is so strong and your response to Occasional Superheroine's crazy-ass opinions on cartoon sex was just polite disagreement. Like, yeah, I think you're right that this coming from Frank Miller is goddamn creepy, but it's basically a non-issue. Whereas, coming out in favor of dude's going to jail for cartoons? Goddamn bonkers.

Edited at 2008-12-29 01:17 am UTC

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-29 03:03 am UTC (link)
Whatever-- Occasional Superheroine started out being reasonable, but it quickly degenerated into internet-flame-war nonsense-- having an opinion on it would have just been dumb. No-- I mean, clearly OccSup is wrong; I didn't think my comments on this were so strong? Mostly I guess the difference is that other commenters engaged in discussion-- Whereas the Occasional Superheroine debate was clearly not a dialogue (most of the latter posts were comments-locked, for instance).

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[info]kromelizard
2008-12-29 05:59 am UTC (link)
You're totally in high dudgeon over this. It's bromance all over again.

Also, I kind of like that this is a creepy and wrong anti-censorship image? I mean, let's get down to it, you oppose censorship for the benefit of offensive art. So gimme something offensive!

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[info]pravda
2008-12-29 01:46 pm UTC (link)
but violence against women in the service of anti-censorship is exactly the wrong way to make both an interesting and offensive statement. There's no relationship between the two things.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-29 02:13 pm UTC (link)
You just wanted to say "high dudgeon."

Like I said-- it would be an effective image-- if it wasn't just a "normal" Frank Miller image.

Anyhow-- my question for Occasional Superheroine is-- how much does she hate "The Reader"?

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[info]flying_squid
2008-12-29 01:24 am UTC (link)
I can't understand Neil Gaiman's love of Miller either, and it was a definite "WTF?" moment to see that being posted in a post that was initially about the Coraline movie...

My one friend said this about Frank Miller's style: The man only knows how to hammer your head, over and over.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-29 03:04 am UTC (link)
I wonder if it is based on a childhood love, or being real life buddies or what, but yeah-- it is pretty mystifying.

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Jumping the shark...
[info]martak
2008-12-30 07:49 am UTC (link)
I feel like it comes down to whether or not an artist can evolve. Frank Miller in the 80's was edgy, poignant, and a creative alternative in the time of Reaganomics: libertarianism, anarchism, and social deconstruction were a great way to shake things up. It was the time of Dave Sim, Alan Moore, and others pushing the medium forward.

But...after a point, it just isn't the same any more. I still buy comics every once in a while written by Stan Lee, but I recognize that it's long after his heyday and I am prepared to wince.

I stopped reading anything written by Garth Ennis because now I can say, "I've read all your COMIC." And my recent comments about Bendis are much in the same vein.

At least Alan Moore has had the decency to retire from comics while he's ahead, and do the unprecedented thing of removing his name from movie adaptations of his works...even though I disagree with his bizarre reasoning.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-30 02:42 pm UTC (link)
Man, see-- you had to bring up Dave Sim! No really though, Dave Sim is like, the anti-Miller. Sure, both of them hate women, but Cerebus transcends that by being pretty brilliant, as opposed to Milller who just wallows in it.

Ennis still manages to surprise me here & there-- like for instance his war comics. Yeah though-- you are right. I disagree about Bendis-- I still think Bendis is great.

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[info]chadvalentine
2008-12-30 10:52 pm UTC (link)
For what it's worth, and I'm sorry to be writing this so late, but I'm in a hurry, I agree with everything you said about Miller 100%. Whoever keeps paying this misogynist borderline serial-killer should be shot, or at least given female sex change and then be sentenced to 20 minutes in Miller's imagination.

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[info]mordicai
2008-12-30 10:55 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if Miller's imagination is actually that scary a place-- I mean, judging by by the quality of his recent work, he can't be like, exercising it very much. All flabby & suchlike.

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