mordicai magog, to caeli therion. ([info]mordicai) wrote,
@ 2008-07-21 10:21:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood:why so serious?
Current music:crown me king- the joker strikes back
Entry tags:comics, movies

the dark knight & the laughing man.




my wife & i (ha!) both crawled out of our "not feeling very wells" to go see the dark knight on sunday. first off, let me deal with the obvious. the death of rachel dawes. i have a hard time caring, & my reason isn't particularly good, but it is, as far as i can tell, the real reason for my lack of response. she isn't a "real" character. by which i mean, she isn't anybody from the comics. i know, i know, how fanboy, but there it is, & it is the truth. also, i felt like yeah, her death was tragic, but that she was a real character. people have made very reasonable arguments-- like, why is the only choice offered to women in superhero movies to either love the male lead or to not love the male lead? & again, women in refrigerators, sure. i'm not really trying to defend my response or denigrate other's critiques; they are probably right. but here is the thing: the joker is pretty fucking awesome.

i spent our time waiting to get into the theater pretending not to know who the batman was. i like doing that! "so, what, he got bit by a vampire? he is from a planet where it is always night & people have wings? a radioactive bat dropped radioactive bat guano on him?" so funny to me. because i am a dork. we had decent seats, next to a couple of old people & in front of some people who kept shuffling the popcorn in the bucket, & eventually spilled the kernals everywhere. the previews were exciting. watchmen looks like it might be too much? but i intend to watch it as a visual appendix to the comic, so i'm easy. terminator was a teaser trailer, but i liked how they mixed the static into the theme music. there were some other trailers too. i'm hoping things are always awesome.

batman was awesome. he was too gadgety for my taste, though; i don't need a c4 gun to impress me. i want him to be a detective; & i don't mean having expensive csi equipment to do it. this goes along with my only complaint about hellboy ii (2) as well-- subvert the narrative! batman is a detective. i wanted to see the batman go "okay, well, the joker is crazy, so obviously x & y are switched. i'm on to him!" & i get that it was the first encounter with the joker, but i still want to see some batman to the max. to the max! some people complain about his voice-- it didn't bother me this film. & his new cowl (or new diet) totally didn't give him fatface in the mask, which was a problem with the first (1st) movie. really batman's best moments were in hong kong, i think.

the. freaking. joker. he had a body count of one (1) even before the flick opened with heath ledger, setting the tone & raising everyone's expectations. & really, i think it all came to fruition. from the moment the joker did his "disappearing pencil" trick, you knew what kind of movie this was going to be. & what kind of a joker. what a pal, a prince, a great guy, a hero for our time. & the joker had comedic relief moments! a funny joker, all i ever wanted. the bit with him futzing with the remote control, outside of the hospital? cracked me up. the war between the batman & the joker turned gotham city into charred ruins. how great is that? all exploding, shooting, burning. i would have liked to see batman "get inside" joker's head? i would have liked to see that. i also would have liked to see the joker tell his origin story more than twice. that was very fun for me.

two face was in this too. frankly, the film succeeded better with harvey dent than it did with two face, which is why i think killing him was a mistake. i liked the visuals, but i would have liked to see dent spiral down, stop just making life-&-death calls on the coin, but other, more minor choices. paralysis through ocd culminating in outbursts of violence. i get why they chose to clip that story, but it is a bummer. i wonder who will feature in the next film? this is the mystery!

also, weirdly, everyone in the theater was totally taken in by the cheap narrative tricks? like, what did you people think was going to happen when he said "skyhook?" who did you think they silent, full-masked guy driving dent's van was? what did you think was going to happen? no, the crowd was full on in suspension of disbelief. which is a good sign. hopefully we've reached the point where comics are taken as what they are. to borrow a phase, "storytelling engines." these are characters that have shown the elasticity & longevity to last generations.



(Post a new comment)


[info]dac
2008-07-21 03:30 pm UTC (link)
I consider sentence 3 as payback for my having spoiled (I didn't spoil it, Whedon did) Doctor (dr) Horrible, Act III.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]pravda
2008-07-21 03:35 pm UTC (link)
it was behind a cut! what did you think was gonna happen in here?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]dac, 2008-07-21 03:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pravda, 2008-07-21 03:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dac, 2008-07-21 03:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pravda, 2008-07-21 04:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dac, 2008-07-21 04:02 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]mordicai
2008-07-21 03:47 pm UTC (link)
ah, sir, but MINE was under a CUT!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]dac, 2008-07-21 04:01 pm UTC (Expand)
she isn't a "real" character
[info]fordmadoxfraud
2008-07-21 03:48 pm UTC (link)
Her character shouldn't have been there in the first place, so it's difficult to summon even irritation at her removal.

Also, the spirit behind stuff like WiR is not to fly off the handle or perform calisthenics of exegesis every single time a female character is killed, it's to be angry about females being given shite roles, period. And since disposable roles lend themselves to, you know, disposing, WiR is just the logical conclusion of the superfluous roles women are handed. And Rachel Dawes was every bit as stupid, superficial, and throwaway in the last movie.

People who get worked up about her death in this movie (in which she has a bit of spirit and personality at least), over her life in the last one (in which she is vapid, useless and ornamental) are missing the point.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: she isn't a "real" character
[info]kingtycoon
2008-07-21 04:04 pm UTC (link)
Isn't this like being angry that Matthew McConanuts gets unbelievable and uninteresting roles in whatever crying-style movie he's been cast in most recently?

There aren't good roles for girls in action adventure movies - probably because there's a pretty meagre demand for that - just like there aren't awesome fellas in romantic comedies.

Plus I'm pretty sure batman's girlfriend has to die every time she knows who he is right? That's the true thing of comics isn't it?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 04:12 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]kingtycoon, 2008-07-21 04:27 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 04:41 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]kingtycoon, 2008-07-21 04:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 05:06 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]kingtycoon, 2008-07-21 05:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 06:02 pm UTC (Expand)
Disjointed disagreement - [info]pravda, 2008-07-21 05:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Disjointed disagreement - [info]aquestrian, 2008-07-22 04:04 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Disjointed disagreement - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-22 05:02 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Disjointed disagreement - [info]aquestrian, 2008-07-22 01:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Disjointed disagreement - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-22 02:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Disjointed disagreement - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-22 02:18 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 04:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]kingtycoon, 2008-07-21 04:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 05:30 pm UTC (Expand)
i don't think gendering genre is a smart way to go - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 04:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character
[info]mordicai
2008-07-21 04:08 pm UTC (link)
i was wondering what woman/love interest i'd insert. catwoman is interesting? i wonder about her. also, i always have liked...what is her name? silver saint cloud?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 04:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]kingtycoon, 2008-07-21 05:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 05:06 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]pravda, 2008-07-21 05:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 05:06 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]pravda, 2008-07-21 05:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]aquestrian, 2008-07-22 04:07 am UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 05:34 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]pravda, 2008-07-21 05:41 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: she isn't a "real" character - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 05:04 pm UTC (Expand)
a funny joker, all i ever wanted.
[info]fordmadoxfraud
2008-07-21 03:51 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, but unlike Nicholson in the role (or even Romero, god bless him), I felt like the Joker in this one was funny, rather than acting funny, which is a world of difference.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: a funny joker, all i ever wanted.
[info]mordicai
2008-07-21 04:09 pm UTC (link)
i still think nicholson was a fine character, but yeah, this interpretation was interesting & hit a good comedic note.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]aslant
2008-07-21 04:08 pm UTC (link)
i wanted dent's voice to be all airy and teeth-noises with two face. how the hell could he talk normally? that totally spoiled the cgi for me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mordicai
2008-07-21 04:12 pm UTC (link)
i wanted him to click like a dolphin!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kingtycoon
2008-07-21 04:09 pm UTC (link)
I think batman actually talked too much - it made the gravelly voice bit a little too cooky.

Also not enough batman at all - and you're right about harvey2face getting the tacked on treatment - still pretty great on the part of that actor - also batman got so upstaged by the joker performancewise -

Well okay - here's my actual only complaint: It's two movies cut down to one. More Joker outwitting the batman in the first half culminating in the 2 face reveal would've been better followed by episode 3 - Batman gets down to it and outwits the Joker but is vexed and horrified by Harvey - spread out - one of the climactic moments would've been a dandy mid-way cliffhanger.

Not that I'm complaining really!

Also Ledger is dead but he was transcendant. I feel like it's correct that someone else play the Joker in the next movie- amplify his I change a lot aspect- the Joker should always be the villian. Also It'd be cool if the next time around he was like- much weaker than batman and scared of getting socked - like the comics!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mordicai
2008-07-21 04:16 pm UTC (link)
i thought at first, with batman being quiet at all the "conferences" that yeah, he was going to pull a quieter bat. i would have liked it. i also want a batman more in the shadows, i don't want people thinking it is a guy in a suit-- i want people thinking it is a vampire or a bat-thing or the mothman.

it is kind of a crammed together movie with no room for the trinity to expand-- i think nolan was just sort of figuring out that it is a pantheon? batman at one end, joker at the other, harvey in the middle.

i was thinking it would be fun to have the joker be the next villain-- i wonder if they'll do it? also-- in the comics the joker beats up batman! first appearance!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]kingtycoon, 2008-07-21 04:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 04:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kingtycoon, 2008-07-21 05:01 pm UTC (Expand)
everyone's crazier than a vertigo rag. - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 05:27 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: everyone's crazier than a vertigo rag. - [info]kingtycoon, 2008-07-21 05:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: everyone's crazier than a vertigo rag. - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 05:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: everyone's crazier than a vertigo rag. - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 06:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 05:28 pm UTC (Expand)
want a batman more in the shadows, i don't want people thinking it is a guy in a suit - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 05:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: want a batman more in the shadows, i don't want people thinking it is a guy in a suit - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 05:55 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]fordmadoxfraud
2008-07-21 05:00 pm UTC (link)
"Transcendant" is the word I keep using for his performance as well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fordmadoxfraud
2008-07-21 05:02 pm UTC (link)
Also you're insane if you think they should ever have another Joker in the current franchise. Ledger is such a high-water mark, such a show stealer (face it, it's a Joker movie, not a Batman movie), that any actor after this is bound to be a franchise-killing disappointment.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]edtheuniquegeek
2008-07-21 04:09 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. I was very desensitized to the whole Rachel character. I was neither sad nor glad she died. It was a good use of plot for Harvey Dent, even though it's not like his comic book origin.
Heath Ledger's portrayal of The Joker was pretty damn good. Very surprising. I liked how he wasn't all comically flamboyant and seemed more like a maniac. It kind of reminded me of some of the darker The Joker stories I read from the 70's and 80's.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mordicai
2008-07-21 04:16 pm UTC (link)
the joker should make everyone smile.

he made me smile.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]onatopofthings, 2008-07-24 02:29 am UTC (Expand)
Other unsolicited comments
[info]fordmadoxfraud
2008-07-21 04:35 pm UTC (link)
he was too gadgety for my taste

Amen.

i want him to be a detective; & i don't mean having expensive csi equipment to do it

Maybe my biggest quibble with the movie is not that Batman isn't a detective in this iteration of the franchise, he's barely even mentally competent. This is not a Batman who's ever going to get inside the Joker. Aside from fighting well and doing xXx stunts, there is nothing about this Batman that's special, and I think that that's an error. HE CAN'T EVEN BUILD HIS OWN GADGETS. (And since apparently no one would believe Peter Parker as constructing his own web shooters, I think you can file this under "Americans don't trust smart people.")

some people complain about his voice--

It sure as hell bothered me. It's retarded.

totally didn't give him fatface in the mask

Totally did.

really batman's best moments were in hong kong, i think.

You are huffing glue. Unexciting setpieces, and utterly superfluous to the narrative (i.e. a giant, sidetracky red herring). It's only saving grace is that it's the only time in the movie that Batman gets to be scary, instead of running around like a chicken with his cowl cut off.

the war between the batman & the joker turned gotham city into charred ruins.

Not entirely accurate, I think, since I can't really think of any successes the Batman has in the entire thing. Hard to call that a war; more like a continuous, sustained beating.

i also would have liked to see the joker tell his origin story more than twice.

Nyet comrade. Always leave them wanting more. Two is exactly as many times as it takes to establish the Joker's lying. Any more than that (even if it's just three) and the retellings need to acquire a new purpose. If he tells it three times, the third time must necessarily be the truth, not another lie.

i liked the visuals, but i would have liked to see dent spiral down, stop just making life-&-death calls on the coin, but other, more minor choices.

I would have liked that as well, but in another movie, with another actor. Eckhardt (or whatever his name is) is a soft background player, not a lead. He's boring. There's nothing interesting or complicated about him. And the CGI Two-Face effects were more laughable than anything else. It's too teen-horror matinee to be taken as seriously as the script acts like it should.

i wonder who will feature in the next film? this is the mystery!

It is an interesting question. I still think Hush is a strong contender. We've put down Ras, Scarecrow, Joker and Two-Face already. The Riddler, Catwoman and the Penguin are the obvious ones next in line, but so obvious that they already had their own movies. And the Riddler is problematic because they already declined to establish Batman as a detective, so the only route left for them to go with him is "crazy guy", which they did with the Joker in this movie. Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze have I think been likewise so poisoned by the earlier movies that I don't think they'll return to them. Oh well, there's always Clayface (I always liked him, although I don't think they want to bring bona fide supers into the franchise) or Lady Shiva (a female antagonist would be a nice change, and it would let them show off the kung-fu Batman they're so keen on; and possibly introduce Cassandra Cain to boot). Or Anarky - hahahaha, just kidding.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Other unsolicited comments
[info]mordicai
2008-07-21 04:49 pm UTC (link)
gadgets-- i was hoping that maybe this movie would be the gadget movie? & that the next one would be him, shorn of all but will. i'd like that. also, robin, but what do i know. maybe for robin the answer is-- old batman?

american's not trusting smart people is a let down. i think a smarter batman, a more threatening one (as in, american's don't trust...) would be cute.

yes-- it gets us to see a competant batman, so the joker isn't just PUNKING the batman, but instead is BEATING a competant batman. i think it is important.

two times, three times...okay. is this like, a rule of cinema?

clayface! oh, i think i see appeal there...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Other unsolicited comments - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 05:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Other unsolicited comments
[info]kingtycoon
2008-07-21 05:03 pm UTC (link)
Did you see Thank you for smoking?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Other unsolicited comments - [info]ranai, 2008-07-21 06:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Other unsolicited comments
[info]ravenface
2008-07-21 05:39 pm UTC (link)
he was too gadgety for my taste
Maybe my biggest quibble with the movie is not that Batman isn't a detective in this iteration of the franchise, he's barely even mentally competent.

>I like the idea that maybe he will decide to stop relying on them so much, like when his headset malfunctioned and he was blind during the big fight, it had to scare him. Plus, he needs more to distinguish him from Iron Man. Movie kids already have a funny rich guy with lots of gadgets, they need a detective.<

some people complain about his voice--

It sure as hell bothered me. It's retarded.

>I get it, but it's overdone. He should just have a modulator or something. I spent a lot of time worrying about it hurting his throat<

totally didn't give him fatface in the mask

Totally did.

>specifically at the big speech at the end, when it looked like they were using some kind of backup mask from the testing truck. The costume sucks, and they need to fix it<

really batman's best moments were in hong kong, i think.

You are huffing glue.

>Weird to complain about gadget Batman and then praise the gadget scene. I spent the whole scene thinking, "Free trip to Hong Kong for the crew!" and "Why is this happening?" and "Why is he wearing his Batman costume? People will put two and two together!" Afterward, since I thought the movie was too long, I picked this as the first and easiest choice for a cut. Should have been a DVD extra.<

the war between the batman & the joker turned gotham city into charred ruins.

>They did a decent job of making me care about the damage. Like, most movies, it's just explosions and who cares, but I worried about the people and the infrastructure. Not sure what they did to make me feel that way, but I was upset at stuff getting wrecked. Poor Gotham.<

i also would have liked to see the joker tell his origin story more than twice.

Two is exactly as many times as it takes to establish the Joker's lying. Any more than that (even if it's just three) and the retellings need to acquire a new purpose.

>I liked this as a concept very much but thought the second tale was wayyy too long, like over-written, and the aborted third was just a setup for the "I know how you got these" joke. so, the rule of three was obeyed, since something happened, but this all could have been tighter. To satisfy Mordy, there could have been random people talking about it or mobsters.<

i liked the visuals, but i would have liked to see dent spiral down

Eckhardt (or whatever his name is) is a soft background player, not a lead.

>I thought the CGI/makeup combo was pretty great visually. I disagree with Ford here. I thought Dent did what he was supposed to. I liked him. A montage of Gotham citizens talking about him would have been nice.<

i wonder who will feature in the next film? this is the mystery!

It is an interesting question. I still think Hush is a strong contender.

>What the next one needs is Matches Malone. Maybe we run with the premise that Batman feels like he needs to be more of a detective than a gadget-sniffer, and maybe he goes undercover, and we get more feeling of the people of Gotham and maybe he gets recruited for a jewel heist for the cats-eye diamond.

Ford's Hush suggestion is good, as long as they change the origin from Bruce's old friend. The core concept of a bad guy whose sole purpose is to make the other bad guys better is consistent with the story they've told so far.

I don't like the idea of Clayface, (CGI! Alfred is a Skrull!). The inevitable is Catwoman and maybe the Riddler, which inspires him to become a better detective?<



(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

there could have been random people talking about it or mobsters - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 05:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: there could have been random people talking about it or mobsters - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 06:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Ford's Hush suggestion is good - [info]fordmadoxfraud, 2008-07-21 05:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Other unsolicited comments - [info]mordicai, 2008-07-21 06:01 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]pravda
2008-07-21 05:08 pm UTC (link)
Reading the New Yorker's profile on Anne Carol Moore (the NYPL librarian who is almost singlehandedly responsible for children's collections but who was a bit of a tyrant) they quoted the words she would often use to criticize books she didn't like, "Books about girls should be as interesting as girls are." I wish they all were!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mordicai
2008-07-21 06:50 pm UTC (link)
girls? interesting? is that what you mean?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]pravda, 2008-07-21 07:05 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]handstil
2008-07-21 06:42 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if I will ever see this movie. Probably not.

You should see a lot of movies before you have kids. Like, just watch them constantly for a year.

The last movie I saw in a theater was The Simpsons movie, before that it was Garden State. Yyya.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mordicai
2008-07-21 06:47 pm UTC (link)
you should go see it! i'll give you my address; put owen on a plane with elias, we'll sit for him. make sure to give him money for a cab! or at least two bucks for the train.

i didn't see the simpson's movie, & i am sad i saw garden state.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]martak
2008-07-22 04:33 am UTC (link)
Weird how Joker was the only three-dimensional character, even after two films of most of the other folks. He even broke the fourth wall several times. How's about this for clever: his "master plan" was a real world example of The Prisoner's Dilemma (in game theory)...and he even used real prisoners!

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]mordicai
2008-07-22 05:04 am UTC (link)
yeah-- it really was a joker show, & he really brought the funny.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]jjjiii, 2008-08-02 12:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mordicai, 2008-08-02 01:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jjjiii, 2008-08-02 01:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mordicai, 2008-08-02 02:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mordicai, 2008-08-02 02:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]martak, 2008-08-02 04:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jjjiii, 2008-08-02 07:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mordicai, 2008-08-02 01:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]martak, 2008-08-02 04:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mordicai, 2008-08-02 04:39 pm UTC (Expand)

Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…